Conventional vs. Humboldt - Is it a regional thing?

[cjmac163]

Just dropping in to hear what you guys all have to say about this. I go back and forth on this matter with different guys I end up on worksites with. I personally prefer a humboldt face 9 times out of 10, as I feel the way the tree lands helps to save out most of your wood, without the tree breaking upon impact with the ground. It seems like a softer, more controlled cut. However, here in NY, it seems the idea or purpose of the humboldt face cut is lost on most people, and everyone just sends all their timber over with conventional cuts. In my apprenticeship as a teenager I was shown both methods, but my mentor often used the humboldt. I suppose that is where my technique derives from.

I know each type of face cut has their place in the industry, but I am curious what part of the country (or world) you are from, and which notch seems to be the go-to in your area.

I know this topic is beat to death. I just felt like rehashing it, because I enjoy learning from others' point of view or way of thinking.

 

[What]

I use both, really depends on the tree, slope, and density of trees around me. For me, it really doesn't matter much, most of the time. Honestly it also depends upon my personal mood some days.
Sloping the bottom cut upwards allows a gentle butt slide off the stump somedays, and then the next one doesn't work.
Does it really make much difference?
Most important thing I find is an even back cut so the hinge is the same thickness all the way across, and sticking a wedge in when appropriate to do so. Usually no need to bear the piss out of the wedge like I see some people do. Just stick it in there, and tap it once or twice with your second wedge. Or stick your axe into the cut, same thing as a wedge really. Especially handy if you do get a tree leaning back, and it does pinch your bar. Well if you already have as wedge in there, now use your axe and pound on it a little, and see if that ends the punch, and keep cutting. If you don't already have the wedge in, when it leans back, you're not getting one in now.

 

[Alan]

Good topic to rehash, honestly. A lot of “regional preference” is really just “what the crew taught” and what works with the wood species and terrain they’re used to. Humboldt vs conventional both get the job done, but people get loyal fast once they’ve dropped a lot of trees one way.

 

[cjmac163]

Good topic to rehash, honestly. A lot of “regional preference” is really just “what the crew taught” and what works with the wood species and terrain they’re used to. Humboldt vs conventional both get the job done, but people get loyal fast once they’ve dropped a lot of trees one way.

That's something I wonder about. "Am I doing it wrong?" Obviously, either face cut would work in the vast majority of situations one would find themselves in. But, when is one more appropriate than the other? What gives someone an advantage of using one over the other, if any?
I don't know if there is a right way, or maybe there really are just two ways to skin a cat, so to speak. But I have a passion for diving into the science of things, and finding the right answer, if there is one.
I like how you mentioned "what works with the wood species." That makes me think about it even deeper. There are some hemlocks in my region that develop some really odd tension and compression patterns, where the limb weight and lean could be going the same direction, and the tree still somehow sits into my back cut. I haven't had that happen with any other species. A deeper notch helps, as it moves the pivot point further past the center of gravity. But perhaps a different notch would make a difference too.

 

[cjmac163]

I use both, really depends on the tree, slope, and density of trees around me. For me, it really doesn't matter much, most of the time. Honestly it also depends upon my personal mood some days.
Sloping the bottom cut upwards allows a gentle butt slide off the stump somedays, and then the next one doesn't work.
Does it really make much difference?
Most important thing I find is an even back cut so the hinge is the same thickness all the way across, and sticking a wedge in when appropriate to do so. Usually no need to bear the piss out of the wedge like I see some people do. Just stick it in there, and tap it once or twice with your second wedge. Or stick your axe into the cut, same thing as a wedge really. Especially handy if you do get a tree leaning back, and it does pinch your bar. Well if you already have as wedge in there, now use your axe and pound on it a little, and see if that ends the punch, and keep cutting. If you don't already have the wedge in, when it leans back, you're not getting one in now.

I agree with you here. I don't know what difference it makes, aside from the way the tree falls and lands butt-first, as you mentioned, with the humboldt. I feel like a conventional notch almost "springs" the tree off the stump, so to speak. I think my cuts are also somewhat mood-based, and depend on my terrain/footing.
No matter what cut I make, I can put a tree where I want it, so I suppose it doesn't matter tremendously. I personally find it easier to put a sizwheel in a humboldt face, though that is rarely necessary for me.

 

[What]

I agree with you here. I don't know what difference it makes, aside from the way the tree falls and lands butt-first, as you mentioned, with the humboldt. I feel like a conventional notch almost "springs" the tree off the stump, so to speak. I think my cuts are also somewhat mood-based, and depend on my terrain/footing.
No matter what cut I make, I can put a tree where I want it, so I suppose it doesn't matter tremendously. I personally find it easier to put a sizwheel in a humboldt face, though that is rarely necessary for me.

Bingo.

I've fallen enough, that 999 out of 1000 times I put the tree right where I planned. Usually when I don't, I take a good look at the stump left, and see my back cut wasn't even, and left me a thicker hinge on 1 side or the other. That makes the tree do a weird sort of mid air roll, and now it's up to God where it lands, and no longer has anything to do with me. That being said, if it's a very windy day, all bets are off, and you may just have to fall them with the wind, and forget your own plans.

Trees that don't grow round, but an odd shape, those are the worst. Just do your best, and be ready to run lol.
They occasionally are such a weird shape, I just guess, pray, cut, and get out of the way.

 

[Steve Woodrow]

Humboldt leaves too much stump for valuable hardwood trees. Never seen one in IN except for one I used on a walnut that was on a 45 degree slope so I could save the entire log down to ground level.

 

[DW Birdsall]

Typically the Humboldt cut was created and used out west -big trees, steep slopes. The Conventional 45 degree notch was originated because of the Axe and Crosscut days. Crosscut went in horizontal, axe took out the top part of the notch. Axe cuts best when it's 45 degrees to the fiber in the tree. Crosscut cut the back cut. Tree jumps off the stump when the notch closes and we all "hope" it goes where we want it to. Along comes a chainsaw and we all kept cutting this way, I recognize this is likely more common in the Northeast. As someone mentioned earlier, when cutting valuable hardwood, you want the stump to be as low as possible.

Along comes the "Open-Faced" "Game of Logging" technique. 70 degree or more open face/notch. The upper cut of the notch is shallow, allowing less waste at the sawmill - it comes off with the slab. Also this cut allows the tree to remain attached to the stump all the way or almost all the way down to the ground, 86% of folks who are killed felling trees have this happen within 12+- feet from the stump. Now add the bore cut - set the hinge to a predetermined thickness and length - Cut back toward the back of the tree, add a wedge if need be and leave a "trigger". Stand up, Snip, Clip & Go - cut the trigger and you are 2 - 3 steps away from the tree before it starts to move. Much safer.

The Traditional GOL technique is the very basic "Recipe" to fell a tree. With considerations of species, leans and crown shapes, this technique is tweaked. Too many folks who don't really know GOL technique criticize it, just looking at this basic cut. Have an open mind and check it out more. It works, it's safe and you can put most trees 360 degrees vs. going with the basic forward lean. Makes the skidding of trees to be much faster if they are all felled the correct direction, avoiding skinning up "save" trees and easier for the machines to skid out. A person with a chainsaw is far cheaper than a person sitting on a skidder! Worth the extra time! Anyway fun to compare and learn all ways! Lots of ways to skin a cat! ;-)

 

[cjmac163]

Bingo.

I've fallen enough, that 999 out of 1000 times I put the tree right where I planned. Usually when I don't, I take a good look at the stump left, and see my back cut wasn't even, and left me a thicker hinge on 1 side or the other. That makes the tree do a weird sort of mid air roll, and now it's up to God where it lands, and no longer has anything to do with me. That being said, if it's a very windy day, all bets are off, and you may just have to fall them with the wind, and forget your own plans.

Trees that don't grow round, but an odd shape, those are the worst. Just do your best, and be ready to run lol.
They occasionally are such a weird shape, I just guess, pray, cut, and get out of the way.

I hear you there. Some of those weird curly-que trees are the ones that have darn near killed me. Head on a swivel with those!

 

[cjmac163]

Humboldt leaves too much stump for valuable hardwood trees. Never seen one in IN except for one I used on a walnut that was on a 45 degree slope so I could save the entire log down to ground level.

I've always thought humboldt was better for saving out more usable timber, as it allows you to put your face lower down, even into the swellbutt. No mill wants any swellbutt included in the log, at least any mill I've dealt with, as it is just material they lose once they begin processing the log

 

[What]

I've always thought humboldt was better for saving out more usable timber, as it allows you to put your face lower down, even into the swellbutt. No mill wants any swellbutt included in the log, at least any mill I've dealt with, as it is just material they lose once they begin processing the log

They penalize us here for them.

Once the truck is weighed and unloaded, they have a ' Scaler' evaluate the quality, before it's decked. Swell butts are estimated by the Scaler, and that discounted from the loads weight. So your paying to haul waste, which is very costly if you do it much. The faller shouldn't be cutting that low. In winter with deep snow, it isn't an issue.

 

[Steve Woodrow]

They penalize us here for them.

Once the truck is weighed and unloaded, they have a ' Scaler' evaluate the quality, before it's decked. Swell butts are estimated by the Scaler, and that discounted from the loads weight. So your paying to haul waste, which is very costly if you do it much. The faller shouldn't be cutting that low. In winter with deep snow, it isn't an issue.

timber here is scaled by length and diameter on the small end. Extra foot on the butt might get you 10 board feet on the log.

 

[cjmac163]

timber here is scaled by length and diameter on the small end. Extra foot on the butt might get you 10 board feet on the log.

You're contradicting yourself. If they're taking the diameter of the small end of the log (as is standard, to my knowledge), the swellbutt means nothing. It's just a flared end to the log. Who cares if the butt is 4 feet, if the mill is only paying you for a 3 foot diameter log?
In all my training and real world experience combined, I have never thought it proper technique to make your cut so low that you are in the swell butt.

 

[Steve Woodrow]

If I cut a foot off the ground I lose a foot in length and maybe 2 since timber is scaled in 2' increments and if my last log which makes 10" inside bark diameter is only 7' I lose the entire log since 8' is shortest they will buy.

 

[What]

If I cut a foot off the ground I lose a foot in length and maybe 2 since timber is scaled in 2' increments and if my last log which makes 10" inside bark diameter is only 7' I lose the entire log since 8' is shortest they will buy.

The mills here have mandatory log lengths, that we cut to, and truck. We can't just choose a length we like, those logs would be refused payment on ever single time, and yes the Scaler has a tape measure, and checks. There are 4 acceptable lengths , that's all, no exceptions. A 7' piece here, wouldn't be trucked, it's piled, and burnt, or cut up for firewood if an employee wants it. We all have wood heat at home, as we have access to far more firewood than we can use. Lauren, an employee, hauls a lot in her pickup, and sells it on the side. I've never asked her for a dime, but every time she sells a pickup load, the next day she hands me 20 bucks cash, and says thanks. The last 2 mornings in a row, she has handed me a 20 dollar bill, and thanked me for the wood. She often stops on her way home, and throws it off at her customers. She over the years, has built a good client list. She is cheaper than most fire wood sellers, because it's not split or seasoned , and they know that. But it's cut to length, and delivered.

 

[Steve Woodrow]

The mills here have mandatory log lengths, that we cut to, and truck. We can't just choose a length we like, those logs would be refused payment on ever single time, and yes the Scaler has a tape measure, and checks. There are 4 acceptable lengths , that's all, no exceptions. A 7' piece here, wouldn't be trucked, it's piled, and burnt, or cut up for firewood if an employee wants it. We all have wood heat at home, as we have access to far more firewood than we can use. Lauren, an employee, hauls a lot in her pickup, and sells it on the side. I've never asked her for a dime, but every time she sells a pickup load, the next day she hands me 20 bucks cash, and says thanks. The last 2 mornings in a row, she has handed me a 20 dollar bill, and thanked me for the wood. She often stops on her way home, and throws it off at her customers. She over the years, has built a good client list. She is cheaper than most fire wood sellers, because it's not split or seasoned , and they know that. But it's cut to length, and delivered.

local sawmill buys 8' to 30' depending on straightness. Markets have apparently changed a lot over the years, in the past he pretty much cut 12'4"

 

[rasawing]

I think it is. I am a east coast guy....and most of the local tree guys just shake their head at my work. I personally prefer the Humboldt because I feel it is safer.

 

[gologit]

I've used the Humboldt on 95% of the trees I've cut over the last fifty years. It gives the mill what they want and I have better options...wedges, a jack, hinge width, hinge taper, siz-wheel, making or leaving a dutchman, an extra snipe on the bottom of the face to let the butt down easier...and I seem to have better directional control.
Directional control is the absolute key. They don't always go the way you want them but if you cross your lead too many times or bust up too much good timber the word gets out and you'll be looking for another job
So much of our hand falling now is done on short ground and steep slopes that saving out as much saw log as possible is the absolute priority.
A good faller will know a lot of different ways to get his trees on the ground. I use what works best for me.

 

[What]

local sawmill buys 8' to 30' depending on straightness. Markets have apparently changed a lot over the years, in the past he pretty much cut 12'4"

I can only cut 10'4", 20'6", 30'8", and 40'10", for mills, no exceptions.